Question

[Dakota Sunrise]

Hi,

I'm new to this site, this is my first post.

I was wondering if anybody could answer a question for me; here's the details:

I bought a horse three months ago (I'm 15). He's 18, a Saddlebred Quarter Horse cross. His name is Dakota. When I bought him he was too thin, probably needed to gain about 50 pounds. For as long as I've had him I've been feeding him Vintage Senior Feed with a half cup of corn oil in it, two thick slices of hay in the morning, and he's on pasture 24/7 so even though there's not a ton of grass left, he can still graze whenever he wants to. I've dewormed him twice with two different kinds of wormers, Ivermec and Quest. But he still hasn't gained weight. Recently he started dropping his grain and doesn't finnish the last few bites. My horse-experienced neighbor told me he probably needed his teeth floated so I called the equine dentist. It turns out it's his two front teeth that are causing the problem and to have them filed down means he has to be sedated by a vet. That's being done Sept. 10th.

Why hasn't he gained any weight? Is it because of his teeth, or his age, or am I not feeding him enough? His coat isn't dull, his dropping look normal, and he isn't lacking energy or anything so he's not sick. But I can see the outline of his ribs and, in my opinion, his hips stick out a little too much. Can anyone tell me why my horse isn't gaining weight and what I can do to resolve this problem?

Thanks!

~Dakota Sunrise

[Dakota Sunrise]

Um, is anybody ever even ON this site? :confused::rolleyes::confused:

[Elana55]

One of the way s to find out if a horse needs his teeth floated is to watch him eat hay. If he takes hay in his mouth and chews and they drops the hay back out of his mouth in a wad, he needs his molars floated. These teeth, as you probably know, grow continuously and can make points on them that will dig into the horse's cheeks and cause pain and difficulty chewing.

"Two thick slices of hay" is not any measurement of hay quan***y or quality (I hate this stupid site for its editing sometimes.. ). I sould suggest you weigh the hay. 20 pounds.. 10 pounds twice a day.. is the best way to feed. Horses are grazers and grazing is eating small amounts all day long. by feeding small amounts more often you can improve your horse's utilization of feed as you are mirroring the grazing action.

I also do not know the quality of the hay you are feeding. Hay should be tested for protein and available protein as well as other nutrients. Hay cut after it has blossomed has less nutritional value than hay prior to blooming. Hay that has any mold or that has gotten wet and then been dried out usually has issues with the protien being tied up with fungus or mold spores and this protien is unavailable to your horse. Hay should also be tested for NDF or Neutral Detergent Fiber. This is a test of how much undigestable fiber is in the hay. This NDF is good for the horse in that it fills up their digestive tract, but too much NDF is just bulk which the horse cannot digest.

Adding Corn Oil is a great way to add calories to a horse's diet. However, be aware that these oils CAN interfere with the absorption of vitamins A, D and E (this is why Wheat Germ oil is supplemented with these vitamins). If the horse is outdoors, vitamin D is not an issue as he will be exposed to sunlight.

I would suggest you continue the feeding program and go ahead with the dental work. I would also suggest you purchase a few bags of Alfalfa Cubes for horses and add 5 pounds a day to the diet and see if there is any improvement in a month.

[Dakota Sunrise]

One of the way s to find out if a horse needs his teeth floated is to watch him eat hay. If he takes hay in his mouth and chews and they drops the hay back out of his mouth in a wad, he needs his molars floated.

I've watched him eat hay and he doesn't seem to have any trouble with it. He's not dropping it at all. I have noticed him having a little trouble chewing apples though.

"Two thick slices of hay" is not any measurement of hay quan***y or quality (I hate this stupid site for its editing sometimes.. ). I sould suggest you weigh the hay. 20 pounds.. 10 pounds twice a day.. is the best way to feed. Horses are grazers and grazing is eating small amounts all day long. by feeding small amounts more often you can improve your horse's utilization of feed as you are mirroring the grazing action.

Ok, what I mean by "two thick slices of hay" is this: Anyone who feeds hay from normal sized sqaure bales knows that once you open the bale, the hay pulls apart in slices, usually there's between 8 and 12 slices to a bale. Two thick slices of hay, in this case, is about 1/4 of a 10-slice bale. Once there isn't enough grass in the pasture for him to depend on, he'll get 1/2 a bale a day, 4-5 slices.

I also do not know the quality of the hay you are feeding. Hay should be tested for protein and available protein as well as other nutrients. Hay cut after it has blossomed has less nutritional value than hay prior to blooming. Hay that has any mold or that has gotten wet and then been dried out usually has issues with the protien being tied up with fungus or mold spores and this protien is unavailable to your horse. Hay should also be tested for NDF or Neutral Detergent Fiber. This is a test of how much undigestable fiber is in the hay. This NDF is good for the horse in that it fills up their digestive tract, but too much NDF is just bulk which the horse cannot digest.

The hay is good quality. My neighbor bought the same hay from the same guy I did and is feeding it to her horses and they are doing fine with it. There is no mold or anything on it, it's not all stems, it's good hay, so I don't think the quality is the problem.
I read on the internet that when horses eat, the way they get the nutrition from their food is by grinding it with their teeth. But when their teeth need floated and/or filed down, they do not get as much nutrition from their food because they have trouble grinding it. Have you ever heard of that? Is that true?

Adding Corn Oil is a great way to add calories to a horse's diet. However, be aware that these oils CAN interfere with the absorption of vitamins A, D and E (this is why Wheat Germ oil is supplemented with these vitamins). If the horse is outdoors, vitamin D is not an issue as he will be exposed to sunlight.

So... would you say continue on with giving him the 1/2 cup of corn oil in his feed or not? Also, Vitamin D is not an issue because he's kept outside in a pasture with a three-sided run in shelter 24/7.

Thanks for answering my question. If you have any other input I'd be glad to hear it.

~Dakota Sunrise

[Elana55]

Hay quality can usually not be told by looking at the bale. You need to have it tested. In NY State, hay can be tested thru Cornell. In most states the feed company will test it for you if you are buying their feed. Green looking hay that is dry and smells good can be 8% protien (which is very low) and very high in NDF.

August pasture, unless it is second growth, is often lacking in nutrition value. Pasture needs care.. just like any crop. What % of your pasture is grass, what is legumes (clover or alfalfa) and what % is WEEDS. Green is as green does and green weeds can look great but be of little value.

Weigh a bale of hay. Find out exactly how much you are feeding. I would increase his hay unless he is not eating all you give him now. I would still get some alfalfa cubes and add those. They are already ground up so easy for the horse to digest and tod chew. If you have a 50 pound bale and it breaks into 10 slices you are only feeding 10 pounds of hay.. if the hay bale is lighter (and they often are.. I always sold and bought hay by weight), then it is even less. A lot of bales sold to "horse people" run only 35 pounds each!

Take the bathroom scale out to the barn and stand on it (weigh you). Then pick up a bale of hay and stand on it again. Subtract your first weight from the second to weight the bale. I used to weigh 10 bales and average the results to come up with an average weight per bale. I had a special scale just for this purpose.

Horses can have other dental problems beyond points on their molars. They can also have bad teeth that need removal. Does your horse tend to chew his hay all on one side of his mouth? The original post seemed to indicate an incisor problem.. which would interfere with grazing (biting and tearing grass from the ground) but would not interfere with chewing (unless the teeth are abscessed.. shich would indicate an infection which alone cna cause weight loss). BTW many horses dribble grain from their mouths when they eat.. but they do clean up their feed bins!

Do go ahead with the dental work you have scheduled. This horse is 18 and floating etc. is still a good idea. Also, as long as he is sedated, they can check for mis aligned molars which might need removal or 'clipping' or any teeth that are just bad and need removal.

Another thought on this.. look at his manure. Does his manure have a lot more long hay fibers in it than other horse manure from horses you know are doing well? Lots of long fibers in the manure will indicated lack of chewing.

The corn oil is not a bad idea... keep on with that and if the pasture is good (not dry and run out) he is likely getting enough Vitamin A and E from that.

Just so you don't think I am talking thru my hat I used to buy and sell hay. I made about 30,000 bales a year and most of this was fed to my dairy cattle. To make milk you need to know what you are feeding (# of pounds of protien, carbohydrates, Neutral Detergent Fiber (NDF) and Acid detergent Fiber (ADF). I had to know this to sell my hay either to horse owners or other dairy cattle owners.

I also owned and bred horses.. raised young ones etc. and the nutrients of the largest portion of their ration came from hay, so I had to know all of that.

You are certainly on the right track with your horse. He is older and so he needs more easily digestible food. He is part Saddlebred so he may be a bit "hot" and have a little higher metabolism than a straight Quarter horse, and so not an easy keeper.

Horses are just like people. Some people can just LOOK at food and gain weight while others need to be sure every bite they take is nutrtion laden or they become very very thin.

Let me know if you have more questions and weigh your hay to see what you are feeding. You are smart and can figure all this out I am sure! If I have over advised, I apologise.. I just want to be helpful!
:)

[Dakota Sunrise]

Let me know if you have more questions and weigh your hay to see what you are feeding. You are smart and can figure all this out I am sure! If I have over advised, I apologise.. I just want to be helpful!
:)

Sorry it took me so long to respond back; I was on a five hour trail ride yesterday and the day before that I was at a horse game show all day. We won three third place ribons *grins*:D Anyway, thank you for all the advice; it was very helpful and since I asked for help, I don't believe it's possible to "over advise".

I'll let you know if the dentist work helps, if you want. (I get that done on the tenth.) Until then, I have increased the amount of hay I give him and I'm trying to talk my mom into letting me swipe the bathroom scale to put in my tack/feed room.:rolleyes:

Another thought on this.. look at his manure. Does his manure have a lot more long hay fibers in it than other horse manure from horses you know are doing well? Lots of long fibers in the manure will indicated lack of chewing.

His manure looks perfectly normal, which kind of surprised me since it seems like he's having trouble chewing. I'm keeping and eye on it, but so far so good.


Again, thanks for all the help; if you think of anything else, let me know! I'm always willing to learn.

Have a good day...

~Dakota Sunrise

[Elana55]

I was not on most of the weekend. I have so much to do sometimes...

I am glad you are feeding more hay. Let me know how the floating of the teeth goes.

Mom's are real funny about taking things out of the house (even just once and returning them!) for things in the barn. I never understood that. I always thought that a visit to the barn improved most things in this life.. but I guess a lot of people don't see it that way.

Congratualtions on the ribbons. I was never much on horse shows tho I did do compe***ive trail rides back in the early 70's and won and like that.

These days I am horse-less but for many years I used my horses for work on my farm.. fence fixing, checking crops, herding and separating cattle etc. Used a German Shepherd dog with the horse on cattle. They worked together very effectively.

Let me know what the dentist and the vet says about your horse and his teeth!

[Dakota Sunrise]

Mom's are real funny about taking things out of the house (even just once and returning them!) for things in the barn. I never understood that. I always thought that a visit to the barn improved most things in this life.. but I guess a lot of people don't see it that way.



I think I'll just borrow the scale while she's at work, then make sure I clean it up and return it. She won't really mind, she's pretty good about that kind of thing. Like for instance, when she went to work today (she's a cook at a this little cafe'; I waitress there, too) I asked her to raid the candy dish that is kept under the counter and bring home peppermints for Dakota (my horse) because he loves them and I ran out!:D LOL, it will be interesting to see if she'll really do it:rolleyes:.

Congratualtions on the ribbons. I was never much on horse shows tho I did do compe***ive trail rides back in the early 70's and won and like that.

I'm not usually much for shows either. I trail ride all the time, that's what Kota's best at. But everynow and then I'll ride him the five miles into town and we'll do walk/trot barrel racing, keyhole, thread the needle, polebending, etc., at the local horse show. Next time we show, I'm going to try and run him since every time we do walk/trot he breaks into a canter and gets us disqualified. LOL, wish us luck; we'll need it, although my dad said we got up to 22 mph Sunday when we raced him in his truck.... *grins*

These days I am horse-less but for many years I used my horses for work on my farm.. fence fixing, checking crops, herding and separating cattle etc. Used a German Shepherd dog with the horse on cattle. They worked together very effectively.

Wow, your farm sounds cool! I always wanted to have working ranch horses and dogs. I guess that's why I'm joining the Air Force when I turn 18, and am going to become a Canine Handler.... Oh, sorry, that's way off the horse topic:o. But you really should get another horse. It must be hard to be horse-less. Now that I have Dakota I can't imagine being without him.


Let me know what the dentist and the vet says about your horse and his teeth!

I'll keep you posted. Thanks again!

~Dakota Sunrise

[Elana55]

I do have one question for you... and I assumed this but you know what the word assume can mean.. LOL...

Does Dakota have access 24 hours a day to cool, sparkling clean, water? Again, from your interests and obvious care about this horse, I assume so. However, I have rescued a number of horses over the years who were "thin" and it turned out they simply lacked adequate water supply1 Mostly this was in the winter.. and some people actually think horses can just eat snow!

When I was your age I used to ride my horses into town. Even when I was older I did it. Good experience for the horse and I always felt so superior when I rode past the gas station and everyone filling their cars. today with gas at $3 a gallon you can feel REAL superior on a horse!

Keep me posted on how the dental work goes.

I will get a horse again someday. Currently I am training a German Shepherd dog. Atka is 8 months old and doing very very well.

It is too bad this site doesn't have more action!

[Dakota Sunrise]

I do have one question for you... and I assumed this but you know what the word assume can mean.. LOL...

Does Dakota have access 24 hours a day to cool, sparkling clean, water? Again, from your interests and obvious care about this horse, I assume so. However, I have rescued a number of horses over the years who were "thin" and it turned out they simply lacked adequate water supply1 Mostly this was in the winter.. and some people actually think horses can just eat snow!

Yes, Dakota does have access to water 24/7. I keep a big tub filled at least 3/4 of the way full at all times and change the water every other day. He also can drink from my goats' smaller water tub which gets refilled with fresh water every day. You're right, I'm not one of those people who think horses can just eat snow:eek:. I know from experience that eating snow does not quench your thirst! LOL! :D

Keep me posted on how the dental work goes.
It is too bad this site doesn't have more action!

I know, I wish more people actually posted on this site. I guess that's why we're keeping this conversation going so long- it's nice to actually have someone to talk with around here:)!

I'll keep you posted...

Thanks again, have a good night!

~Dakota Sunrise

[Elana55]

Just wondering how the floating went and if they found any other problems with your horse's teeth?

How is he cleaning up the extra hay you are feeding him?

[Dakota Sunrise]

Just wondering how the floating went and if they found any other problems with your horse's teeth?

Well, it wasn't a standard float; he had to file his front teeth too which are very sensitive which is why he was sedated. The dentist said he really needed this done (his old owners who had him for five years never even had his teeth floated) and that his teeth were so long that he couldn't grind his teeth. But it went well, and he (the dentist) said Kota should be set fot up to two years now and is as good as new.

He's still dropping some of his grain though, I noticed this morning. But then again, the dentist said that his mouth would be sore for about a day so it probably just hurts for him to eat. He's being really careful about chewing his hay too, so I guess his mouth is just sore. He should be ok by tomorrow or the next day... I hope.


How is he cleaning up the extra hay you are feeding him?

He's eating most of it, and what he doesn't want my goats finnish up.
The dentist suggested that I give him this supplement/vitamin in his grain. It's called Blue Seal MinoVite (I don't know if I spelled that right). He said it will help him to put on weight and give him whatever minerals he's not getting from his salt block (he recently started licking wood and eating dirt so his diet must be lacking something.) Anyway, I'm going to try the MinoVite and see how it works.

Thanks for all help and advice and good conversation!:) Have a good day.

~Dakota Sunrise

[Elana55]

Glad it went well. A mineral supplement is not a bad idea.

Yeah.. he will ahve a sore mouth for maybe more than two days. Think about what they have done in there.. OUCH.. his cheeks will be sore and raw and his gums. If he is still cautious in a week, you may have a problem. Most horses are fine in about 5 days.

He may be a grain dribbler.. I have had a few horses that did this. They always cleaned it up, but they dropped grain while they ate.

Glad he is getting a little more than "enough" hay. that will help too. this will all take time.

good luck!